Spotlight Conversations: Mr Squiggle and the legacy of Norman Hetherington

ALEX SLOAN: Welcome, everyone, to this extra lovely event at the National Museum of Australia. So, look, we’re all here because, I think, of happy childhood memories, thoughts of laughter, of delight and just a bit of magic. How did he do it? Norman Hetherington amused, inspired and delighted generations of Australia. And with this collection, and exhibition, that delight and inspiration continues.

Norman Hetherington entertained troops during the Second World War and was a cartoonist at The Bulletin, but is best known as the creator of Mr Squiggle. The puppet with a pencil for a nose brought together his two loves: cartooning and puppetry, and the show became one of Australia’s longest running television programs. This is an extra special night tonight because we’re lucky enough to meet members of Norman Hetherington’s family.

So let me do the introductions and, look, well done to the Museum, for grabbing this amazing collection and mounting this exhibition. So please welcome up to the stage now – and I know she’s absolutely delighting in this role – and that is curator from the National Museum, Danielle Cassar.  Up you come, Danielle.

[APPLAUSE]

Norman Hetherington’s daughter, Rebecca Hetherington. Up you come, Rebecca.

[APPLAUSE]

And Rebecca’s son and Norman’s grandson, Thomas Hetherington-Welch. Up you come, Thomas.

[APPLAUSE]

Now, Rebecca.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes.

ALEX SLOAN: The holder of all knowledge.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Ooh we’ll see, we’ll see.

ALEX SLOAN: What would your father, Norman, Normie, make of this, of this exhibition?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: I think he’d be – I mean, even the fact that people have turned up and are interested in hearing about his life – he would be really flattered and quite bewildered, I think. But he’d be so excited. He’d be so excited to see this all presented so beautifully that, yeah, he’d be very touched – but a bit embarrassed.

ALEX SLOAN: You describe him as just the nicest man ever. And I asked you off air, did he have any faults?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Well, I’m sure he had faults. He must have had faults. But as a performer and as a creative person, I don’t see those faults because I think he worked really hard. He always came at things with 100% – or 150% – of commitment and excitement about what he was doing. So, in a working sense – and he was really easy to work with, and very friendly and warm to everyone he was working with – whatever their role was, and whatever contribution they were making – he valued that contribution.

So I guess he must have had faults. Well, my mother would say he was a workaholic and so ...

ALEX SLOAN: I don’t know if you wanted to come in there, Thomas. You were about 11 when he died.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH:  I was. I was.

ALEX SLOAN: So you had a good dollop of …

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: I did, I did. I think I had well, the wonder years for me and his twilight, I suppose. I suppose from my perspective in terms of faults, he wasn’t the most organised. Would you say, mum?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Oh, no, I think he was very organised.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Well perhaps he had an order for himself that made sense to him.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: In his defence, let me say, he actually was exceedingly organised. But once …

[LAUGHTER]

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: No no no but, no no no, okay. There is actually, there is actually order in that. And if you panned around and saw the entire studio, there was order everywhere.

It’s just after 70 years of continuously creating, it was just getting a bit, it was sort of getting …

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Busting at the seams.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON:  Busting at the seams.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: It was.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: But there was, there was order and organisation. And let me tell you –  honestly, blink of an eye, he could like locate anything on that workbench. And you see up the top there: plastic shapes, wooden shapes – that is everything he would just find and he would store it and he would know what was in that box. So if he was making something he’d almost not have to get the box down first. He’d go ‘Oh yeah, there’s that red tube that I got – that’ll be a perfect nose.’ And he’d just bring it down straight away. So I think he was very organised, and very organised in his approach to doing a puppet show. He had a list and it would have everything on it that he needed in terms of if a puppet might break a string – it was all there. And he didn’t leave before everything was packed and in the car. So, I’m defending him.

[LAUGHTER]

ALEX SLOAN: Yeah, actually, my husband saw these photos – I think he had shed envy. And he went, ‘There’s sky hooks! He’s got things organised ...’  I think he agrees with Rebecca. I mean, it does look like Aladdin’s cave to me. It just looks so beautiful. Danielle, acquiring this collection was just a great get for the National Museum. How important is it as a piece of Australian cultural history?

DANIELLE CASSAR: It’s so important in conveying who we are as Australians and helping to shape our national identity. Mr Squiggle is so deeply woven into Australia’s cultural memory. And then when you add Norman Hetherington’s personal story and his life’s work, it’s been such a joy to welcome Mr Squiggle and Norman to the Museum.

ALEX SLOAN: There’s so many things to love about Norman’s story, but the fact that his parents – he went to the prestigious Fort Street High …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Fort Street Boys High back then.

ALEX SLOAN: Boys High. Both prime ministers and many creatives – that his parents didn’t blink an eye when he said he wanted …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: They blinked an eye!

[LAUGHTER]

ALEX SLOAN: Well, he announced he was going to go to art school. Okay. And this is just after the Depression.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Just after the Depression. So he’s approaching or completing his intermediate certificate. And they would expect that he’s going to go on. And yes, he might be a bank manager or a solicitor or … and he says, ‘I want to leave and go to art school’. And they were terrified.

But fortunately, they actually showed some samples of his work to a couple of very successful artists that they, their family knew, and said ‘he wants to go to art school. What do you think?’ And they said, ‘I think he’ll be okay. You should let him do that’. So they said, ‘Okay’. And I think that’s incredible from their point of view.

ALEX SLOAN: I think so too.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Because they were, they were humble, hardworking people that were excited about their son’s future. And he took a left turn.

ALEX SLOAN: And then he actually went to work in advertising as well, didn’t he, he went part time? But then the war came. And his talents, his artistic talents were quickly recognised and …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, well, yes, he enlisted in the infantry, but someone was organising a show for the troops and realised he, because of his cartooning and his illustrating, he could do lightning sketches.

So they said, ‘Oh, will you come do a, do something in this performance we’re putting on?’ So that sealed his fate. And once they saw that he could do that, they said, ‘Oh, well, we’re moving you across to Army entertainments and you’ll be entertaining the troops’.

ALEX SLOAN: So the war experience and that, yeah, having to think quickly, having to perform, so it’s a whole lot of his talents coming to the fore. And then he comes back from the war and gets a dream job as a cartoonist at The Bulletin.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: From very early, sort of being a young teenager, he wanted to work at The Bulletin. To be a cartoonist at The Bulletin was his dream job. And he, even as a student when he first went to art school, he sold his first cartoon when he was about 16 to The Bulletin, and he pursued that relationship. He kept selling cartoons to The Bulletin and to other publications, which you’ll also see in the exhibition, all through his war years. And when he came out of the war, he went and visited the editor of The Bulletin, and they offered him a job. So he, I mean, I find that incredible. Where do you go from there? You sort of, you’ve come out of the war and you’re 24 and you’ve got your dream job. But it turned into much more because The Bulletin was such an alive, creative space. And they expected everyone to pursue all their other, creative interests.

ALEX SLOAN: But a superb vantage point to critique modern Australian life as it was then. And, of course, Norman Lindsay was a great encourager, wasn’t he?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, yes he was. He was very senior at The Bulletin when Dad joined. And of course, he was one of Dad’s idols, and so loved that contact and Norman was very, very encouraging and said, ‘You must find your own line. People must, when they open the magazine, they must immediately see that that is a Norman Hetherington. They must be able to recognise your line’. So he had sort of lots of experience that he shared. And also he took him under his wing to complete Dad’s etching classes.

ALEX SLOAN: Danielle, how did the curatorial team shape the story around Mr Squiggle and Norman’s creative world?

DANIELLE CASSAR: It’s a bit of a chronological story that we’re telling. So we are doing a journey of discovery into Norman’s creative world and looking at how these kind of milestone moments throughout his life, picking out some of those threads and showing how his wartime performances and his cartooning and his puppetry – all of these kind of converged towards the ultimate creation of Mr Squiggle there.

ALEX SLOAN: How did he pitch Mr Squiggle – the puppet with a pencil for a nose? I mean, how did …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Well, you know what, I think with enthusiasm. And he couldn’t help himself but talk about, with excitement, about what he was doing. And so there he was doing his Nicky and Noodle show. And of course, over a cup of tea, he’d be telling people about this puppet he was doing. And so when Nicky and Noodle’s contract was finishing, John Appleton, the head of ABC Young People’s programs then said, ‘You need to take six weeks off, get new backdrops, new scripts for Nicky and Noodle – we’ll bring that back in six weeks. But … something next Wednesday … why don’t you bring in that puppet you were telling us about that could draw with the nose?’

So that’s how he pitched it. It was just an enthusiastic chat. And yeah …

ALEX SLOAN: Then the hard work came in.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, yes.

ALEX SLOAN: Was it an instant hit?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, yes it was. They were flooded with people sending in squiggles. And so that’s why Nicky and Noodle never came back. Because, poor old Nicky and Noodle.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Yeah.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: But that’s the story of television, isn’t it? That’s showbiz.

[LAUGHTER]

ALEX SLOAN:  They appeared on the ABC’s first broadcast?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: They were on the first night of ABC’s broadcast.  But, yeah, three years later, they were …

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Old news.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Old news. Mr Squiggle had nudged them aside.

ALEX SLOAN: Thomas, you are 25. So your generation didn’t grow up with Mr Squiggle. So how do you explain it to your friends? What kind of reaction do you get from your friends?

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Well, yeah, it’s funny because the show ended the same year I was born. And so I feel, when I was in primary school, I was the only kid who knew who Mr Squiggle was. And I obviously thought Mr Squiggle was really cool, because he was my grandad.

A lot of my friends, they’re … especially now that I’m older and working in puppetry and working in theatre and shows and with artistic people, everyone, has – it’s funny, they have some connection without having some connection. I was saying to, a friend of mine at uni, she … when I said ‘My grandfather’s Mr Squiggle’, and she was like, ‘What? Mr Squiggle?’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, yeah, you know who Mr Squiggle is?’ She was like, ‘Yeah, that was the game that my mum always played with me in the car on road trips, and she would do a little squiggle and give it to me in the back seat and say, “There you go, do a squiggle.”’ And it’s funny that it didn’t have to be on TV for the idea, the name, the concept be passed on, passed down.

ALEX SLOAN: So are you hoping this exhibition, I mean, this is … and plus I suppose your work, it’s coming out of this legacy as well, but it will lead on to more Mr Squiggle moments for people? And Rebecca, you’ve said that after your dad died, you were often asked to give talks and you come away from those feeling sad and – but this one ….

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: It’s not like that at all here. Because I think when you walk in, he is there. He, his DNA is in every line of every drawing and every stroke in the way a puppet is built. And, and I also think that the people at the Museum, their joy in what they do and their approach to the items that they look after, their interest, and it really makes it, it makes it lovely. So I don’t feel that sadness, it’s very different, which is lovely.

ALEX SLOAN: You followed on from Miss Pat?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: No, no, no, no, no, no.

ALEX SLOAN: No? Put me straight. You go, you answer the question.

[LAUGHTER]

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: So there was Miss Gina, then there was Miss Pat, and then there was Miss Sue for a moment. Then there was Miss Jane, then there was Roxanne, and then there was me.

ALEX SLOAN: What was it like working …?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Ah it was great fun. My father was actually really fun to work with. And I know I’m biased, but he actually was, and I really enjoyed it. And we had a great repartee. And so it was fun.

ALEX SLOAN: Because that … you had to be on Mr Squiggle’s wavelength, didn’t you? There was a lot of unscripted.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: The most fun was when you actually do the squiggles because that wasn’t scripted. And yet every now and again, he would say, ‘Just make sure you ask what that ball is’, because he’d have something that he wanted to talk about that particular … why there was a yoyo on the end of the elephant’s trunk – because there was a story about the yoyo. But apart from those little pointers, it was completely ad-libbed. And it was a lot of fun.

ALEX SLOAN: You did get told off once for doing …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Oh yeah. Actually the squiggle’s, I think the squiggle’s in there on the …

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Yeah, it is.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, it was in Hyde Park – it was one of the first times I had actually seen a live show, and it was quite a big thing to take shows from on air to a live audience. And so Squiggle with Miss Pat was one of those. And so I got to do a squiggle. I was only about 7 or something like that, and I did this squiggle … and I went like that. Afterwards, he did say, ‘What was that scribble you did? What did you think I was …? That’s a …’

ALEX SLOAN: But it’s here in the exhibition.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: It is. And it’s a great squiggle!

ALEX SLOAN: The most common question is, how did he do the drawings?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: As Normie would say, ‘With great difficulty.’ Yes. And after 40 years, you’d get quite good at doing things.

ALEX SLOAN: Is this a quote from Norman, or is it from you? ‘A perfect combination of a clever idea and a person with specific cartooning skills and a wild imagination.’

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yes, that’s how I sum it up, I really think that that’s the case. And he grew more practiced at that and grew more like Mr Squiggle as time went on and more embedded in the character, I think, as time went on.

ALEX SLOAN: And I’m going to ask Danielle, I mean, what are your thoughts as a curator about why Mr Squiggle and Norman Hetherington’s puppets and performance had such enduring appeal? Forty years.

DANIELLE CASSAR: Yeah, he’s just such a fond part of our childhood, and everyone loves to reflect on those lovely moments of your childhood. But I feel the concept of Mr Squiggle and squiggling, it’s such a simple one. And anyone can connect with it, no matter what your age is. If you watched it on television as a child, or you come into the Museum and you see it here, I think it’s just got universal appeal. And that’s what makes it so enduring.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Yeah.

ALEX SLOAN: I’ve been studying his face and I think you’ve nailed it, Rebecca, in his … Mr Squiggle, it’s a sweetness.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON:  He is really sweet and he’s very attractive.

[LAUGHTER]

You know, I look at him and I think there’s just like. I think he really is very engaging and those eyes. I mean, speaking as someone who sort of stood next to him and did those squiggles, he turns and looks at you and you’re quite mesmerised.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: There’s not a hard edge about him. He’s soft: soft hair, soft features. Yeah. He’s a soft and gentle character. I think that was well, when it was when it was coming about, he did feel that there were, there was too many mean, naughty characters for the kids on TV and there wasn’t enough gentle, soft ...

ALEX SLOAN: Blackboard was as tough as it got.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Yeah, pretty much, pretty much.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: And I have said this before, but Blackboard was misunderstood.

[LAUGHTER]

Because, he was a performer at heart. And he often, you may not have heard: ‘Oh is it time for my song and dance?’ when the squiggle had come off, and he wouldn’t get a chance ’cause on would go another squiggle. So he was really a frustrated performer and, and he was, he was waiting for the light to shine and for him to have his moment. And it just didn’t come about. So I think people should be very gentle and sympathetic to Blackboard.

ALEX SLOAN: I hovered over the ‘Hurry up’ t-shirt. I’m going back, I’m going back.

Tom, your mum says too that she felt every time she dropped you and Harry off to be looked after by your grandparents: job done. The happiest place in the world. Was it?

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Because if there wasn’t the studio then there was the beautiful garden that we could go and play in. But the studio, especially as, a creative space as, just the options were limitless. You could do anything in there. We could pull out a Pill Doctor and a dragon, and we’d be, we’d be playing for hours. And. Yeah, I’m sorry. I know they were toys for us, but not for you.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: I couldn’t believe it. You know, I’d look and ‘Go, oh, really?’ You were allowed to play with that? Oh, okay.’ Things that I would never have played with or touched when I was a child.

ALEX SLOAN: Grandparents go quite dotty.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Oh, I know. And they weren’t then tools of the trade. You know, they weren’t the work tools anymore. They were just beautiful things in the studio. Yes. The boys were allowed to play with.

THOMAS HETHERINGTON-WELCH:  I think, similar ways to what you were saying before for an artist – I think having so many different ways that you can be creative is such a blessing. It makes complete sense to me that he wrote, he painted, he drew, he created puppets, he manipulated the puppets. It makes so much sense to me.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: He was the kind of the triple threat, like, he really could do everything from start to finish.

ALEX SLOAN: Tell me about Miss Pat. We’ve just had a story from my husband how he got a signed letter back, and he was in love with her, deeply in love with her. And I think there’s probably quite a few people in the audience that … But tell us about Pat Lovell?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Oh she was … Dad really enjoyed working with Pat. She was, had multiple television jobs that she was juggling and racing in to do Mr Squiggle.

ALEX SLOAN: But the bit about I loved with Pat Lovell – Miss Pat with Rocket – with the steam going up, that was initially talcum powder?

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: It was talcum powder because talcum powder was beautifully fine and would create lovely puffs of billowing steam, for both Rocket and Bill. But then there was some sort of stories around that talcum powder was in fact carcinogenic.

So Pat took Norman aside and, stood up for her performing rights. And so he had to find something else which he settled on cornflour, which he wasn’t as happy about because cornflour does clump a bit.

ALEX SLOAN: Rocket wasn’t taking off …

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: No, you know, in a cloud of beautiful talcum powder.

And he, he was really, ‘Everyone should suffer for their art. What’s the, what is her problem?’ He would say these things as a joke, but maybe underneath he was a little bit … serious.

ALEX SLOAN: You … Miss Jane, was another favourite for you, tell us about Jane.

REBECCA HETHERINGTON: Oh, I loved Miss Jane because she was sort of my … Well, she was my era because we didn’t actually own a television in Miss Pat’s era. So then we had a television so I could actually see Mr Squiggle. And also by that time I was going with Dad to work as often as I could. And so I got to know her and she’s just a lovely, fun person. And Dad really enjoyed working with her as well. And she loved Mr Squiggle.

ALEX SLOAN: That’s fantastic ... This has been a joy and a delight. Thank you so much for, well … Rebecca, for you, for all that work in … as Thomas acknowledged to me before, he did leave the archive for mum to deal with. Rebecca, and I think, as the audience have said, of sharing these incredibly personal family stories and delight, thank you so much. I think you’ve lifted us all up.

Thomas. I look forward to all your work and coming to your shows. I hope to be there on the list. And Danielle, thanks for your, beautiful and obviously your amazing relationship you formed with the family as well. So please thank: Rebecca Hetherington, Thomas Hetherington-Welch and Danielle Cassar.

Enjoy the exhibition everyone!

And thank you so much for coming and for loving Squiggle. Thanks so much.

[END OF TRANSCRIPT]